A word about Meme Replies

Ranaki_Pakewa 2016-09-01 17:47:54 UTC #74

I was directly refering to Eljay's comment about quote;

where he implied popularity, not content, is what constitutes a like.

Again, you've taken what I'm saying away from it's context. I was directly referring to his absolute statement, which was used to trivialize Scar's point. Give me proof that I'm wrong, but generally 22 likes on a post that isn't the start of a topic is generally high for the boards.

By that logic, in what measure can you value something as good or bad? Aside from a supreme deity declaring "Thou shalt not meme", how can it's value be measured aside from the affirmation of our peers? Likes are the boards measure of value. Each like is more than just a microsecond action, it is a persons explicit support or recognition of the content of the post.

Never said it didn't.

Aside from the time it takes to write a novel-length post, a normal shorter post has doubled in time to post due to the need for incessant button-mashing for the post to actually post.

Unless you can provide pure evidence, your dismissals are no more than a toddler sticking their fingers in their ears. If you can provide proof that Eljay has done more than Slime, John, Waj, etc, I'll gladly accept otherwise. However, with real evidence you can find that according to the Users page, you can find that all three of the aforementioned Moderators have spent more time with the site than Eljay.

Even Scar and I have more experience with the Boards than Eljay

Is that enough proof, and not just assumptions for you?

Are the other testimonies on this very topic not enough? Unless you're asking for me to divulge private chat room messages, you can find many testimonies across the site of how often the errors occur, and the amount of abandoned accounts of long-time users are also public for you to see on the Users page.

Never said I was, just pointing out that this site isn't only a labor of love.

Simply put, unless every one of the users has an adblocker, each and every non-adblocking user is generating ads. Not that hard a concept, unless you just want to apply "assumptions" to everything. Need me to link you to the Google AdSense page to prove that ads generate revenue?

They also have how many giveaways? And don't say that it is only sets that Lego has donated for that purpose, unless they have been stockpiling retired sets from over ten years ago for it. I work in IT and know how much serverspace can cost, and ad revenue can compensate for server cost.

It's closer to spoilered for politics The war on drugs, which has been just as much of a lost cause as Prohibition was, while the money, manpower, etc could've been used for other things.

If I've missed anything, I'm sure you'll let me know.

Anaru_LST 2016-09-01 17:48:34 UTC #75

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

BioKnight 2016-09-01 17:48:58 UTC #76

I might get a lot of flack for this, but I am going to throw my hat into the ring about this. Personally, I agree with both of these and it would be hard to decide which post describes my opinion better.

I personally have my own evidence of something like this happening (except it wasn't a meme).

My most liked post was on the Bionicle is Officially Cancelled Topic where I posted a quote that I felt described the end of G2 Bionicle and was something that people could discuss.

Link is here:

However, Meso posted right under me with the word "sigh" that added almost nothing to the discussion, yet at the time of posting this, his post has almost 75% more likes than my post.

The reason for this is most likely caused by Meso being a cast member, so people will like almost whatever he posts, because they want to look "cool" or something like that. You then compare this to a Master who has not been on the boards that long, so most people don't know that much about him.

All in all, the main reason people get likes on the boards is mostly because of what they post, but it can sometimes be attributed to the amount of popularity they have among the other users of the boards

Anaru_LST 2016-09-01 17:49:09 UTC #77

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Ranaki_Pakewa 2016-09-01 17:53:26 UTC #79

Dear Lord, Anaru. Please stop acting like a child. Even I know to at least stay civilized with my posts, even if I'm not exactly TTV's favorite right now.

Chronicler 2016-09-01 18:08:20 UTC #81

Gonna give my word as a Mod here for a second: the biggest issue on the site is the glitchiness, not the memes.

So why are you guys complaining about spammy memes being outlawed? (Which has, for quite a while, been a rule we've been enforcing regardless.) You guys are practically defending Double Posts when you do this.

Sure the Double Post rule is weird, but it helps us make more thorough discussion and utilizes the site's functions for the better. Plus it cuts down on spam. That's what this rule is meant to do, I think. To make sure we encourage discussion.

Plus memes aren't being 100% banned. Did you guys miss this?

But those are just my thoughts.

IllustriousVar 2016-09-01 18:09:39 UTC #82

I would like to thank @Scarilian, @pizzacheetah, @Ranaki_Pakewa, and anyone else who has been able to provide their input in mature and meaningful ways. I understand there is a lot to this rule that might not be ideal to many users, and I am more then willing to have a dialogue with our members regarding it, so long as we can do so appropriately.

Between this, work, and the stupid 403 error I'm really swamped at the moment. But I'll do my best to address everyone when I get the chance and make any adjustments if I deem them necessary.

Winterstorm345 2016-09-01 19:08:49 UTC #83

I still don't get why everyone is saying things like "TTV is trying to take away our jokes" when they're really not, @Eljay clearly said that we could still post memes, we just need to add more discussion, an example would be

I see an awesome moc, so I post an image that perfectly sums up my feelings about it, but instead of just putting that, I also include what I like about the MOC some constructive criticism (If it's needed) all while maintaining a positive look on the MOC, because someone did put effort into making it

Moa 2016-09-01 19:27:31 UTC #84

Well, I guess I might as well touch on this. A while ago I remember a case (I'm not saying names but people may remember) when a user once posted something like 'yeah' and the user was a long time user, and the post got quite a handful of likes. But then another, news user said basically 'yeah' and got no to a few likes. This could be an isolated case tho.

That's not to say this always happens, but sometimes the user is a factor in likes, especially if they are a good poster and don't post often. Usually less of something is more appreciated, one of the points that is trying to be made with this whole ordeal.

I'm going to back you up on this and say this is correct.

This is also true. It seems that the site actually handles the shorter posts worse, maybe the long posts need less time to process or something. Idk how it works.

The users page is the post solid eve since on the site there is. There are statistics as previously mentioned however they are not publicly available to all users. However, tho less adenced, the most concrete evidence would be that page.

I remember this. Like I said, earlier, there was another example of this and I think you had an even better one than I.

This also frequently happens when the "OG users" log on. (People who were the very first masters) Many of them rarely still visit, so people like their posts. Like I said in my last post,

I have seen it happen.

Exactly. Spammy memes are outlawed, but they weren't outlawed today. People seem to be forgetting this.

Thank you!

This was the perfect post TBH, you summed up everything in a paragraph.

Chilly 2016-09-01 19:31:48 UTC #85

Were both of them responding to the same post?

AwesomeJoel27 2016-09-01 19:34:03 UTC #86

I think everyone is missing that jokes aren't outlawed, we just should add more
discussion and actual thoughts to the jokes, and to be less spammy about how we use these memes.

I didn't end up saying something really dumb right? I do that from time to time.

Winterstorm345 2016-09-01 19:34:40 UTC #87

Thank you Moa, you just made my day

No, but you did kind of just paraphrase my point that's two posts up.

AwesomeJoel27 2016-09-01 19:48:58 UTC #89

ye sorry bout that m8, been wanting to say that for a while but didn't want to get into the war going on earlier.
(and 403 really doesn't want me to either)

Kopeke 2016-09-01 20:14:56 UTC #90

I get what you are trying to say and having just read this entire topic I'm wishing Judge Judy had a boards account (Yes I watch that show, so what?). I see great points from both sides of the argument, but I don't exactly see what this argument is going to achieve. It's like trying to start a petition on Change.com to get Makuta or the MOUP. As Kah.. er, Jon, has said

Bionicle ended recently and I'm pretty sure now isn't a good time to be arguing about adding a few lines of text to an image.

I get the idea of stating your points and they are pretty good ones, but I don't think arguing is going to change anything. And I'm 99% sure TTV isn't doing this to harm us (but everything Eljay says is wrong no matter how right it is. That's why we need a new leader, a leader not afraid of having his identity stolen and being killed in his sleep, a leader like me! VOTE KOPEKE FOR ELJAY 2016!), Takuma helped build the website so I'm pretty sure he would have a good grasp of the going-ons behind the boards.
(Unless I'm an idiot and he actually doesn't and I'm spewing stuff without thinking this through.)

I'm pretty sure this whole comment was meaningless and did jack squat to help but those are just my thoughts.

Sorry for making this pop up in your feed Smeaty.

Scarilian 2016-09-01 20:31:20 UTC #91

Bunched a few of these quotes together to save space and make it flow better. You can refer back for the full context, not trying to mislead anyone.

As per Eljay's comment here, that response with just an image without text would be breaking this new rule.

You have no evidence to support even a single aspect of your claim and it is simply not possible for you to judge how much someone finds something amusing. Your viewpoint is completely baseless - so I'm hard pressed to view it as anything other than a lie. Inaccurate? Misinformation? Misguided? Misconstrued? -shrugs- Whatever the proper term is.

Eljay, put simply, you actually do not have a single piece of data that measures user amusement - it simply isn't included on this site. You made a remark about users experiencing amusement that was completely without facts. People finding meme's or these videos or images humorous is NOT something the board has statistics on. There is no factual evidence you have.

I am measuring something easily traceable - user engagement in topics and comments. There are an absolute ton of ways you can measure this ranging from likes, comments, individual users, repeat viewings, frequent users, new users, etc...

One of the ways to do this is to take a random topic and see how many people have broken this rule in the past and how many likes they received is an actual statistic on the board - its a measurable aspect and I've shown some of those to you in the previous post. The boards document every like and comment (at least those not removed) and there is over a years worth of evidence on my side that any user can easily spot by simply finding memes or instances of this rule being broken previously. The highest levels of engagement come from images, new topics, or heated discussions.

In this debate, i am the one using the board statistics while you are claiming to know people's personal amusement based on... well... nothing, Your passing off something as factual without showing anything behind it or backing it up with anything. There is no way to measure personal amusement nor to factually claim its a small group doing this - which is especially odd because this wouldn't be an issue if it was just a small group that was doing so not noticed.

You can see the frequent posters directly under the first post (For example the Bionicle 2016 topic has 24) and you can see roughly the level of response that memes or images without comments get (22 likes on that image without discussion posted previously)

The frequent posters are your core fan base for that topic, the people who return time after time to post comments and interact and generally contribute. They are almost equalled by the number of members who found the image insightful, meaningful or to have some level of humour to warrant giving it a like.

The boards don't have to cater to either side, but to claim that the majority of the boards simply don't find things amusing (by claiming only a small group do) is alienating one side and implying the other side don't find aspects funny even though once again, no way of measuring this.

If memes can or do provide commentary they are providing a discussion or an avenue for discussion - meaning they would indeed contribute to discussion.

Surprisingly the most engagement this topic has had other than the main post and Looch leaving is in people sharing their own thoughts/opinions on the rule.

Actually Eljay stated it wont do a single thing to solve the 403 errors as quoted above. This 'friendly reminder' is to do with the speed of the boards, which nobody has really had any issues with (Or at least no one has made a bug topic about it on the boards)

Staff from Project Message have admitted that removing Project Message has done nothing to help the 502 or 403 errors and they actually seem to have increased after the PM was deleted.

I'm personally making a tribute to the PM and its members parodying how terribad its death was xD Its kind of the final board related funny thing for a lot of the PM's members (Pretty much the Master's of the boards) who have now left the boards completely.

User engagement is something i often have talked about on the boards. Project Message was founded by mods so that they could interact with users and that they'd have a way to chat and things. It was so popular and sought after, with people trying to gain Master to get in, because that is the heart of the boards - the people and the way they interact. Sadly i feel the boards are losing a lot of people due to the 403 and interacting is made increasingly difficult due to that error - the timing of this rule and its rather unclear explanation does not help.

==================================================================

I understand you are swamped, i know you are very likely putting in a lot of time and effort into doing work and to try and find a solution to the 403 error that is no doubt causing the staff as much or even more stress than several of the users - amongst the other issues that the boards may have.

I am honestly not trying to cause any arguments here and have tried to explain my points in mature and meaningful ways by going in-depth - granted that means longer posts however it also means more aspects can be tackled as long as its read.

Regarding this rule, i have some queries given how poorly it seems it has been explained given users are still getting this rule incorrect (Such as users believing this will fix 403, that it only applies to memes, etc...) Its clear its been explained badly so users are confused about what it means.

Query 1; Data usage

While I get what Eljay is saying here about a bunch of people only posting images, however i don't see how the new rule is actually supposed to make the issue of data usage diminish.

For example, how would this;

Be contributing to the issue or providing discussion more or less than this;

And how does adding five words somehow make it use less data than having it use just an image? If it helps the boards that's good, but the way its being explained makes it difficult to imagine if it even would help...

Query 2; What actually qualifies

Going with the above image again, including five words basically telling people to look at the image according to Eljay somehow doesn't qualify as rule breaking, so can you clarify why a comment not adding discussion attached to an image that is effectively a meme is not considered rule breaking?

Query 3; Why the random jabs at users finding things amusing?

This topic, despite its name, as stated by Eljay several times is not about memes - though they may slightly be covered by the rule. Its about images, gifs or videos being posted without a comment accompanying them which it seems he personally views as both non-contributing to discussion and yet also providing commentary (Contradictory much?)

Yet despite how humour and amusement does not factor into this rule, it was brought up immediately along with claiming that a small group of the boards is the only ones who would find these things amusing, Are we to really believe that jokes such as Mardi Gras or other TTV related images, gif's or videos are only liked by a very tiny minority and that the rest of the boards don't find it amusing because that's the way its portrayed here It didn't have a place and has been the source of all heated discussions on this topic between almost every member and Eljay - so why was it there when it isn't supported factually? (You cant measure amusement on this site)

====

Shall leave it as three queries for now, hopefully explains the issues with how its been explained. A general summary or list of a trimmed down version of the points @IllustriousVar would probably help users a lot.

Something like;
- Helps with speed of boards
- Does not fix 403
- Does/does not apply to update posts in MOC or art topics
- Etc...

(Not sure if these are all accurate, but hopefully you get the idea)

(Once again, excuse typo's due to 403's)

Edit; Just had a new error 'unspecified error' guess that is some progress if its changed from 403..

Willess12 2016-09-01 20:53:21 UTC #92

Really?

There was also another topic "The Boards are becoming difficult to navigate" that was closed and deleted because of the... harsh words of the topic creator.

And I can site several posts in a certain PM about the loading speed of the boards.

Point is, practically everyone has complained about it.

~W12~

Scarilian 2016-09-01 21:09:37 UTC #93

Short answer to that topic is this; 502 errors.

This topic was made 18 days ago, during which the 502 error was active. Primarily this was/is the cause of the slow servers. The topic has been inactive since because the 502 error was fixed/turned into the 403 which doesn't affect loading times as often (its more post/like related)

Speed of the boards is not a factor regarding the errors here, you can see multiple people in that topic mentioning the 502 error as the cause - because that's what they were having issue with. Though Legomaster did mention solutions that could help fix the issue.

Legomaster has actually mentioned precisely why this new method of still uploading images but simply having text will not change the data usage. As he explains, its the uploading of images to the server is what causes slow loading (other than errors) - a problem that could reasonably be fixed by just encouraging people to use a hosting site for images rather than trying to reduce amount of images posted by getting people to add a bit of text also.

In essence, wouldn't this solve the errors a lot more effectively? Encourage fans to use a hosting site or link images via a different site rather than upload = less strain on servers.

pizzacheetah 2016-09-01 21:12:05 UTC #94

I don't think I've said this, but this rule really isn't very well explained. At first, the basic idea of "don't post a single video, image, gif, or the like without also adding text" made sense. It had an easy loophole, add canned text, and I didn't think it would really fix much, but it was clear and easy to follow. However, the discussion here has really jumbled things up, and now I'm no longer sure what constitutes breaking the rule or not. If this is a rule that is enforced on subjectivity, where some posts that "break" this rule will be considered valuable to the discussion, and others considered spam on a case-by-case basis, that's fair. I'd like to hear someone actually say that if it is the case. If it's not, and it's a blanket rule, then as I said earlier, it hardly changes anything. Adding a couple words that mean effectively nothing and add very little to the discussion brings a post from "I made a joke" to "I made a joke, but now it's in accordance with the rules." In either case, it's just a silly joke. Very little changes. I don't mind this rule, I can follow it pretty easily, as can many others, but quite frankly, I just haven't seen a good reason as to why it exists. It isn't related to fixing any errors, people are still going to post just as many data-consuming images, videos, etc. and all it does is make people add forced dialogue that, in most cases, will likely add nothing more to the conversation than before. This is an assumption, sure, but it's based on a personal experience. Every time I post an image, gif, video, etc. I always feel the need to write something with it so it doesn't come off as off-topic (as stated in an earlier reply). I can honestly say that, despite my wonderful mastery of the English language and my incredible writing skill, half of the time the comments I add to one of these posts are complete malarkey.

Look, I don't personally mind the rule, I basically followed it before it was in place anyway, but I would enjoy seeing a solid reason as to its existence, since clearly people are upset about it.

Ned_Flanders 2016-09-01 21:12:11 UTC #95

Maybe we could just remove the direct upload feature entirely?

It's not like it's actually reliable, and could theoretically save a ton of data.

Jon 2016-09-01 21:17:38 UTC #96

Here's fact one: we have something that does measure that. It's called likes.

Here's fact two: we have something that's more important than likes. It's called data charges.

So when we pay for the boards, we have to pay for data. A ton of text posts is super small in space. A ton of image posts is not.

You know why people lock their doors? I mean, most houses usually have windows too, right? What's to stop someone from throwing a rock through it and walking in?

There's this theory that there's this group of people that will never enter a house with a front door unlocked and opened, because they're moral like that. There's another group of people who will always enter a house, lock or not. They can enter in through a window, or break in the back.

But the majority of people, some say 98% of people, are part of a third group. This group will enter a house if it's unlocked and open. But if it's locked, they won't think twice about going in. The fact that there's some obstacle in their way overrides any curiosity they might have. They end up thinking it isn't worth it.

Adding text to the images isn't going to deter space from being taken up. Rather, what we're hoping it will do is defer the majority of the people who do not have anything to contribute outside of that message. The idea is that most people, who will want to post an image, realize that there's more work to do it than they realize and will leave the post on the cutting room floor. It deters the post from being made in the first place.

We don't want to cut images out entirely, we don't want to cut our functionality out entirely. We don't even want to cut funny images/memes out entirely. But because of the level they can be spammed, because of how easy it is to spam them, we are adding our own little lock on the door. Will it defer the spam? To be honest, we're not sure. But, you'd better hope so, because if not we will actually have to start cutting funny images/memes entirely. We don't have the space or the money to keep it going otherwise.

Sidenote: it is also worthwhile to mention that we are 1. The people that determine what is spam and 2. the people that decide what is amusing. These are our boards, and we while we understand that not everyone has the same type of humor that we do, there does come a point where we will shut down trends that we think do not contribute to what we would consider discussion if they actively start hurting us.

So you can imagine that, when it comes to money we have to pay out of our pocket vs. images/meme replies that we don't even consider worthwhile, we are going to put our foot down. That's what we're dealing with.

The software we use directly reuploads the images to our boards in order to preserve archiving. This is so that topics can still be seen with the original context, going back to the beginning of the boards, in case those sites go down. This is an especially useful feature for us, because we in the LEGO community have been very weary of alternate hosting sites since Majhost and Brickshelf have gone down, and up, and down again. This way, we can see images like MOCs and Artwork in their original, preserved glory no matter when you look at our boards.

Where it starts making less sense for us is when images contain stuff we're not really that eager to host, like memes, funny images, or reaction gifs. But the software can't distinguish between the two, and we've already been burned by Majhost and Brickshelf to commit to moving everything offsite. And honestly, we don't find a lot of the non-original, creative content all to worth preserving to begin with.

So you can see why we're making this rule now, and why we're probably still going to stick to our guns.