POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

[Racie02]

@Ghid

Then let’s only have characters we practically already know entirely be given contests,

That’s the opposite extreme; that isn’t what I’m going for. Look, to provide a nice middle ground: I’d be happy to see the pre-mutation Barraki (though it looks like that won’t happen at this point). There’s a lot of leeway with them – they’re completely unknown species – but that wouldn’t establish every detail about a significant* character we know nothing about.

Lariska is another good example: we know her colors, and that she has a robotic arm, and uses daggers, but she is also a complete unknown species.

*significant if the story had continued, at least

@Ghid

when you look at the results of the poll. ‘Many’ is about 75 out of 417.

@SirKeksalot

Many" in this case being not even a fifth of the community,

That’s not counting all of the people who have said “yes, but…”, like Dorek for example, or people who voted yes under the assumption that the contests would only be for characters like Helryx, Lariska, Artahka, etc., and wouldn’t be canonizing big story details.

@SirKeksalot

They kind of…don’t have canon to adhere to right now. They have “Marendar is a robot” and that’s it. What are they doing now, then?

They’re doing just what you said: whatever they want, whatever they feel represents the character best.

[Willess12]

I’m going to chime in here with a (maybe controversial?) counterargument:

I think the fact that we know so little about Marendar, and that he’s so open to interpretation, is actually a detriment. “Restrictions breed creativity” as the phrase goes. With characters like Lariska or Helryx, we’re trying to design something to look like the character: Lariska should be lithe and agile, Helryx should be ancient and powerful, and each moccist must interpret that to the best of their ability. A moc contest for Lariska is a “who can build the best Lariska” contest, using her specific colors.

With Marendar, though, we have the vaguest idea of what he is: tall, humanoid, Toa-killer. A moc contest for him becomes less about “who can make the best Marendar Moc” and more “Who can make the coolest moc in general”.

(This is also why I would 100% support a Barraki contest: they should look like their mutated forms, but less ‘mutated’. It’s the ideal balance between creative freedom and creative restrictions)

Anyway, that’s my two cents. Feel free to counter this argument as you wish.

[Ghid]

@Racie02

There’s a lot of leeway with them – they’re completely unknown species – but that wouldn’t establish every detail about a significant* character we know nothing about.

You could give them multiple arms, completely different physical forms, entirely different colour schemes - and explain it all away with Pit Mutagen. Again, nobody would vote for it and it would go nowhere, so this is a bit of a moot point, but it’s the same as Marendar being blue - there’s no rules to say that Pridak wasn’t lime green with six arms and no teeth before being mutated.

In all seriousness, this kind of contest would be establishing every detail about a significant character we know next to nothing about - aside from his personality. And again, Greg can just as easily say ‘No’ to anything he doesn’t like, so I don’t see the cause for such concern here. Anything radically different to what Greg already had in mind isn’t going to be canonized, even if the community votes it as being the best.[quote=“Racie02, post:378, topic:51213”]
Lariska is another good example: we know her colors, and that she has a robotic arm, and uses daggers, but she is also a complete unknown species.
[/quote]

There’s been a Lariska moc with completely alien details and feel compared to the rest of Bionicle. There’s been a Lariska moc which has a giant eyeball for her head. How come Lariska, seeing as what people can do to alter the character, is fine for the process, and Marendar isn’t? Because we have a couple things to work off of?

I should point out that Marendar, at the end of the story, hadn’t even done anything remotely noteworthy aside from being mentioned. Any dramatic canonization for the character would be completely irrelevant in terms of modifying the story as nothing would be impacted by him being blue and wielding a mace that any other character could accomplish. Pridak being formerly blue and wielding a mace would have way more lasting effects on current canon because Pridak existed in written material for longer, has a dramatic impact on the MU as a whole, and is the definition of an entire theoretical species. Marendar affects none of these and out of the characters that could have contests probably does the least lasting damage to the story as a whole.

My point being? It’s ridiculous to say that canonizing what Marendar looks like is way too far, and defining what an entire MU species looked like isn’t.[quote=“Willess12, post:379, topic:51213”]
With Marendar, though, we have the vaguest idea of what he is: tall, humanoid, Toa-killer. A moc contest for him becomes less about “who can make the best Marendar Moc” and more “Who can make the coolest moc in general”.
[/quote]

I disagree and here’s why.

People already have a preconception of what Marendar is supposed to look like, which varies from person to person - as there’s no definitive version in existence - and that will influence their decision as to what they choose. Excellent building talent is necessary, definitely, but more importantly than that you have to be capable of building a model that fits enough of your voter’s preconceptions while also taking a stab at what Greg was thinking of when he made the character. As Keksalot said:[quote=“SirKeksalot, post:363, topic:51213”]
Without any popular image to skew people’s expectations, the voters will be forced to pick whatever they legitimately think fits best.
[/quote]

So it’s not about building the coolest moc that vaguely fits the necessary description. It’s about building what you think is the best Marendar, what the world thinks is the best Marendar, and most importantly what Greg thinks is the best Marendar.

And to that end, I say hoorah. This is a challenge more worthy of a canonization contest.

[SirKeksalot]

@Willess12

I think the fact that we know so little about Marendar, and that he’s so open to interpretation, is actually a detriment. “Restrictions breed creativity” as the phrase goes. With characters like Lariska or Helryx, we’re trying to design something to look like the character: Lariska should be lithe and agile, Helryx should be ancient and powerful, and each moccist must interpret that to the best of their ability. A moc contest for Lariska is a “who can build the best Lariska” contest, using her specific colors.

With Marendar, though, we have the vaguest idea of what he is: tall, humanoid, Toa-killer. A moc contest for him becomes less about “who can make the best Marendar Moc” and more “Who can make the coolest moc in general”.

While this is absolutely a fair point, I think a Marendar contest is already somewhat restricted. Big robot, bane of Toa, not a member of any existing species–most entries will probably be big robots, which is already a fairly limited scope.

@Racie02

That’s not counting all of the people who have said “yes, but…”, like Dorek for example, or people who voted yes under the assumption that the contests would only be for characters like Helryx, Lariska, Artahka, etc.

But how many of those voters are there in this camp? There’s a few in this thread, but how many fans do they really speak for?

@Racie02

and wouldn’t be canonizing big story details.

Is what Marendar looks like really a big detail? Or is it nowhere near as important as what he can do, which is take out Toa with ease (presumably)?

[ProfSrlojohn]

@Willess12

I’m going to chime in here with a (maybe controversial?) counterargument:

I think the fact that we know so little about Marendar, and that he’s so open to interpretation, is actually a detriment. "Restrictions breed creativity

To this point, you are not alone. As I’ve mentioned above. I agree in full. May still be controversial, so I’d like to see how people disagree with us.

[Racie02]

@Ghid

And again, Greg can just as easily say ‘No’ to anything he doesn’t like, so I don’t see the cause for such concern here.

That’s a good point, and I’ll add to it: regardless of what we say, whether a Marendar contest even happens is up to Grag. I can spend the next four days providing the most eloquent, convincing argument as to why i think that a Marendar contest would be bad, you could counter every point with your own, and unless one of us somehow convinces Greg, the final say is his alone. He can say (and i expect he will) “no, i don’t want a Marendar contest” and there won’t be one.

And if I’m wrong and there is a contest for Marendex? I will not object. Heck, I’ll enter it, if i make something good.

I do have two further things to say, though:

@SirKeksalot

what Marendar looks like really a big detail? Or is it nowhere near as important as what he can do, which is take out Toa with ease (presumably)?

It’s less a matter of what he does, and more how he can do it. We know lariska kills her enemies with daggers and agility. Marendar kills Toa, but how? If we canonize that he has a mace, then he has a mace; if we canonize a moc with a gun, he has a gun; if we say he has tentacles, he has those.

I also bring up colors; as stated earlier in the topic, there were people upset when Tobduk was canonized as red, because it was different from what they imagined. It isn’t a huge story detail, per se, but it is big.

Speaking of people disliking canonization…

@SirKeksalot

But how many of those voters are there in this camp? There’s a few in this thread, but how many fans do they really speak for?

I don’t know. Unless another poll were held, there’s no way to know. It could be most everyone who said yes, or only a handful of them. I simply wish to bring up the possibility.

[Gonel]

@Infrared

Here is BS01’s list of (significant) characters without visual depictions.

Good find. A lot of these characters would honestly lend themselves well to art contests, like the Element Lord of Earth or serial characters.

@fangface1

Here’s the thing though, there’s so many thing Marendar could be. Whoever wins will affect canon more so than any other character. We can all agree Helryx looks like a toa, even if her armor or mask is something people disagree on, the things the contest winner would have control over are not things that would really affect canon in any major way.

Marendar on the other hand could be anything. He is humanoid, but he could have multiple arms, he could have animal features, he could be anything that fits what little we know about him. For just about every other character these kinds of details are hammered down, even if there’s other details we don’t know. The person who wins the contest, assuming Greg agrees to canonize it, has power over things that would affect canon more than the winner of any other contest.

I quite agree, actually. When builders take to these abstract, minimally described characters, they’ll inevitably have to explain their decisions and rationale when making the characters. These decisions and explanations will have to be taken into account when seeing the image and interpreting the character down the line.

For example: “You may think it’s a weird choice, but the reason my Marendar’s armor looks like Nuva symbols is because, much like the Nuva symbols, they can take away the Toa’s power and absorb them, preventing the Toa from accessing that power” or smth (yes, I know that’s not exactly how Nuva symbols work, but you get the idea). That automatically would require some canonical connection between the Nuva symbols and the Marendar.

Or “My Marendar carries the weapon that it does because it’s the same weapon Kabrua uses.” Would mean there’s some connection between Kabrua and the Marendar and perhaps even with Velika.

Or “My Marendar is not built with any connection to any other figure.” Means that any connection it could plausibly have with these other characters is decanonized.

Not sure how much sense this makes, and I can try and clarify if necessary, but as far as I could tell when skimming, that was one angle that I don’t believe had been addressed in detail.

[darkbrick999]

It’s true that the Marendar winner could drastically affect cannon, but personally, I think that’s great. The whole purpose of these contests is to affect cannon, so I figure, why not go all the way?

My only exception would be if (and it’s a big, big, if) Greg actually plans on adding more material himself. However, since it seems he doesn’t, and since he often says that he doesn’t plan much and ‘writes by the seat of his pants’, what we get as the contest winners will likely not go against what Greg intended. As such, since ths will likely end up being the final word on the characters in question, it makes sence, to me at least, to go big or go home.

[Mctoran]

Just throwing this out there, but could a Great Being MOC be possible in this contest? That is something I’d really want to see.

[Eljay]

We will not be considering approaching Greg about Great Being contests. It is not on the table as far as we are concerned.

There are absolutely some characters I feel should not be touched at all. Tren Krom and the Great Beings are some of those.

[Mctoran]

Aw, okay then. Though disappointed, I can obviously understand the potentially drastic ramifications and it might have on the lore if it were in the contest

[SirKeksalot]

@Racie02

It’s less a matter of what he does, and more how he can do it. We know lariska kills her enemies with daggers and agility. Marendar kills Toa, but how? If we canonize that he has a mace, then he has a mace; if we canonize a moc with a gun, he has a gun; if we say he has tentacles, he has those.

Unless it’s something that can be exploited in a very specific way for story purposes, I still don’t see the big deal there.

@Racie02

I also bring up colors; as stated earlier in the topic, there were people upset when Tobduk was canonized as red, because it was different from what they imagined. It isn’t a huge story detail, per se, but it is big.

Imma keep it real here: I genuinely think that if you’re mad about a fictional character not being the color he’s usually depicted as even though there’s nothing written in stone, you kinda deserve to be mad.

@Eljay

There are absolutely some characters I feel should not be touched at all. Tren Krom and the Great Beings are some of those.

■■■■, there go my plans to submit a mutilated steak with googly eyes as Tren Krom.

[Chronicler]

MOC Contest for Tren Krom: who can make the best gelatin sculpture?

[Ghid]

@SirKeksalot

Imma keep it real here: I genuinely think that if you’re mad about a fictional character not being the color he’s usually depicted as even though there’s nothing written in stone, you kinda deserve to be mad.

It’s like if a contest was held to determine the proper colour of Karzahni - everyone has the sickly green and blue combo in their minds, but the books actually refer to him as black and gold. Were that to be a more blatant public statement, everyone would be absolutely livid.[quote=“darkbrick999, post:385, topic:51213”]
My only exception would be if (and it’s a big, big, if) Greg actually plans on adding more material himself. However, since it seems he doesn’t, and since he often says that he doesn’t plan much and ‘writes by the seat of his pants’, what we get as the contest winners will likely not go against what Greg intended. As such, since this will likely end up being the final word on the characters in question, it makes sense, to me at least, to go big or go home.
[/quote]

This is exactly why I’m not interested in a contest to determine Helryx’s eye colour. If the changes being canonized are so minimal and insignificant… Why are we having a contest?[quote=“Chronicler, post:390, topic:51213, full:true”]
MOC Contest for Tren Krom: who can make the best gelatin sculpture?
[/quote]

Hush while I buy as many instant packs of jell-o I can get my hands on

[MaskMaker]

Hello Everyone.

After much deliberation, I have unfortunately made the decision to ban the use of any of my 3D modeled/3D printed masks and creations in this contest. Any contest submissions that include any of my creations (or any derivatives) in it are to be removed from participation in this contest. This includes MOCs, artwork, 3D renders, etc.

This was a difficult decision for me to make but I believe it is best for the Bionicle Community as a whole.

This decision is Final.

Thank you all for your understanding. Stay safe, everyone.

-KhingK

[Ghid]

Is this supported by the cast and crew?

[Mesonak]

We respect the decisions of the individual modelers and creators of custom pieces even if we disagree with the logic behind not wanting them included in the contests (which we definitely do). In the end, those who created them have ownership of whether or not they’re used in contests, and we’ll definitely abide by those wishes.

[KINGSIDORAK]

Hello everyone, I am Custom Parts Designer and Mask Maker, Kingsidorak. This is my official statement on the matter.

I am fully open to anyone using my custom parts for mocs, and set-like packs. If any parts are to be used for canonization mocs, please be sure to list the model numbers of said parts so that people can easily find the right ones they see being used. Some parts I’ve made are in collaboration with other people within the community, so getting my part numbers correct also means you’re giving proper credit.

If anyone has any request for custom parts, please contact me via Twitter @Kingsidorak, Discord (info on Twitter), or information I have listed on my Shapeways or my Gumroad page where I sell my 3D model files. Same username, links are also in some of my Tweets.

A lot of my custom designs are still pending remakes with new measurements and new techniques, or have but have been updated but have not been re-released. If a part you want has not been updated yet, feel free to ask me about it, so I can repost it.

[Jack_Rizzo]

I think that’s a real shame, and I don’t understand the justification, especially considering none of your designs are (to my knowledge) monetized. I hope you’ll reconsider, just as I hope others who have said the same will.

[Galva_Nize]

Just set up this account finally.

This is Galva_, another 3d modeler in the community.
It’s come to my attention that I should make an official statement.

Any and all of my 3d modeled pieces are 100% free and open to use however and wherever anyone wants.

As long as one of my models isn’t being advertised as made by someone else, they’re entirely free game.

It is my belief that 3d modeling and printing is the future of the Bionicle fanbase, and I’ve decided to keep everything I make as free and available as possible to facilitate this.

Have fun! Stay creative! I’d love to see what gets built!