POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

That is an excellent idea, that way it keeps 3d parts from being as much of an issue.

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UPDATE

So, just to update you all, Greg messaged me back earlier today in response to my inquiries about his stance on these hot-button issues, namely regarding Hero Factory helmets and G2 masks, CCBS parts in general, and 3D printed pieces. Based on Greg’s approval, the following is true:

CCBS Pieces are ALLOWED
BIONICLE G2 Masks and and Hero Factory Helmets are ALLOWED
Custom 3D Modeled Pieces are ALLOWED (Though we stipulate that to be masks and weapons only)

The future direction of the contest is still to be decided concretely, if it’ll happen at all, but Greg has given the go-ahead on these controversial issues, so for what it’s worth… that is what it is. Don’t worry in regards to CCBS, we would absolutely follow precedent and implement a parts ratio in tandem with G1/Technic pieces that is consistent with prior contests. I’m glad CCBS will be allowed for the sake of build diversity, but I respect the G1 aesthetic too much to mess with it drastically.

I will say, though, that I discussed this heavily with Swert earlier in private earlier today and he proposed the idea that contests would work in three steps.

  • An art contest to design the mask
  • A MoC contest to design the character - Winner would be featured on BS01 with a caption of “Depicted wearing [PLACEHOLDER MASK]”
    -An art contest to design artwork based off the MoC

This would sidestep the concerns regarding 3D printed pieces, as we would probably elect to disallow them if we went for this route (it’d be pointless if the masks were designed via artwork). It would, however, provide artists the ability to design custom masks for these characters, which is what I want so desperately, and I’m sure the talented 3D modelers in the community would swiftly make physical versions of these designs so the community could build them “accurately.”

It’s a good compromise that balances the art and MoCing aspects, while allowing for build freedom without the controversial elements of 3D masks clouding the proceedings. It’s not what we’re definitely doing, but I wanted to put it out there to see what you all thought of it. :smiley:

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so we’ll have a separate contests for the masks, via artwork?

Hmm… I really like this

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That’s the idea, though it’s just that at this stage. It just seems like a good compromise in my mind.

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Well I do certainly like it, I’m more comfortable with drawing masks anyways.

A second poll should be added for this. It’s likely to get buried in the topic and the people who have voted should be aware that this is a suggested option from a site that would be heavily involved.

As well, not every character needs to have a mask necessarily, so the first contest should definitely be a character not locked into that specification for an easier test of the waters. This looks very promising and we’ll be keeping an eye on developments.

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For what it’s worth, I have a hard time taking Greg’s word on the nitty gritty of MoC’s all that seriously given the amount of times he’s declined to comment on them before. He has repeatedly said he isn’t a set/MoC person, I don’t really see what’s changed there.

Honestly, at the end of the day I might even feel more comfortable with any of this if constraction was still around in some form, but like… it’s not. It’s dead. Applying anything new to something that is so pointedly legacy material is just something I can’t wrap my head around.

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With this in mind, I would like to bring up another concern.

What exactly happens to everything that has come before this contest? Are we allowed to enter already existing fan-made work? What about those who have left the community before this contest? Will their work ever be recognized or have a chance at “canonization”?

If (hypothetically) I was to join this contest and use some of my previous fan-made work, can I do that?

If not, that seems unfair for many of those who have already produced fan-made content. We would have to revise/revamp/redesign many of our pieces of work JUST for this contest. And in my opinion, for most of my Kanohi designs, they are solid pieces of art that I have no plans on changing.

And if past works are allowed, how much weight would they carry compared to newer entries? Would they be looked down upon as being less legitimate? Because none of us knew we would have this chance over the past 10 years.

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@SirKeksalot
The character designs from Lego are indeed a special case. They are not in the same category as fan-created designs, because they are what defined Bionicle in the first place and inspired the fan-created content. Yes, it does matter that Lego, not a fan, created them, because Lego owns and created the IP, and that inherently carries more authority.

On the other hand, I am saying that some arguments in favor of running this contest, like the one you are offering, invalidate their own premise. Namely, they are claiming that canon is significant and at the same time has no significance. I prefer not to run the contests because I think there is too great a risk that I will not be satisfied with the results, and I am content with fanon, some aspects of which I enjoy, and some aspects of which I do not. I do not see a need to impose one canon design on the community, and I think it is better to leave things to personal interpretation. Your rebuttal is that the canon contests do not need to impose on other fans’ interpretations. But that implies that they have no significance in the first place, and so are not canon. That is what canon means. It is an absolute, agreed-upon interpretation. My issue is not that it would prevent anyone from making MOCs – of course it wouldn’t. My issue is that I would simply not like the canon design, which does hold weight with me, even if I have the ability to have headcanon.

So you are saying that the canon models have significance even though people are always free to have headcanon, in which case I vote no.

But more fundamentally, there are two mutually exclusive possibilities, both of which lead to the same conclusion for me. Either canon has meaning, in which case I don’t want new canon MOCs that I don’t like, and I vote no on this issue, or canon has no meaning, and the contests have no value, in which case I also vote no. That is my logical reasoning.

Then you are going to have to justify to me what we have to gain by canonizing designs that we cannot also gain by developing fanon.

@Mesonak My opinion, FWIW:

Not a fan, but if it is limited as you suggest, it’s not a big problem for me.

Really not a fan, because they are not compatible with the original Bionicle head-mask system.

What about custom armor pieces?

This seems okay. Would the art contest have guildelines consistent with the Lego theme, or would movie-style designs be encouraged? I think submissions for the art contest should be required to have enough angles/detail to build an accurate 3D model at the end.

I’m still in favor of either having a separate step to decide what to hold a contest on, or a separate step to decide whether the contest winner is canon, in order to alleviate contest bias.

Huh, neat

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What kind of guarantee of accuracy to canon descriptions do we have? For example, Artakha’s primary color is a grey-green, but I’ve seen many interpret it as “grey and green” which is inaccurate. Same for Lariska’s blue-green.

While I prefer Swert’s solution, it makes me even more worried about it ensuing art theft.

The use of 3D printed parts makes this feel more like a sculpting contest than a MOC contest. You could make a set of armor pieces specifically for one character, upload them, and then submit your MOC which looks great because of those esdential armor pieces, not because of the build. You have won a “MOC” contest not because of your MOCing abilities but because of your 3D modelling abilities, and that seems very unfair to me for this being a MOC contest. MOC contests have always been about using the limited pieces given to you (by LEGO) and finding creative ways of using those, imo. Limitations inspire creativity.

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We definitely will either amend the topic or make another poll in the coming days; we have to discuss it a little further.

I understand that in theory, but the way I see it is that this is so inherently harmless and innocuous (far more so than a lot of other canonization efforts in the community, which often boil down to things equivalent to trying to figure out what Gresh ate for breakfast the day Mata Nui arrived), that I don’t really get all the hooplah against it. These aren’t mysterious characters who were purposefully obscured by the story, they just… were book only characters so they didn’t receive visuals by sheer unluckiness. I don’t see why holding contests to foster community participation and continue a positive atmosphere of collaboration with Greg is such a bad thing.

I also don’t really see how constraction still being around has anything to do with BIONICLE G1 and its evolving canon. Had Greg still continued participating in the community and these contests way back when, I don’t think the existence of Hero Factory would’ve really played a role one way or another.

That’s a point still up for discussion, and I think there’s merit to both sides. You make really good points about the large backlog of quality fan work and it deserving to be respected and included; there’s a whole other school of thought that thinks it would be very unfair to allow MoCs or artwork that have had so much time to be refined and iterated upon over the weeks/months/years to be in the same poll as creations made with a specific deadline. I see the merits of both, so please, make your voice heard.

I suppose armor would work; I’ll be honest, my only attachment to the 3D printed piece idea came from the mask side of things, for the purpose of giving important characters unique masks, so I really don’t care about weapons or armor too much. Armor pieces wouldn’t be too much of a dealbreaker, I suppose, if masks would be allowed. Still, if the three step contest plan is eventually adopted, I’d abandon the whole 3D printed piece gambit entirely.

It’s a very good question. I would ideally like the mask designs to look like they would belong in the BIONICLE world, but the style would vary so greatly between artists it could be difficult to ensure that unless some kind of guidelines were given. I don’t really know what those would be, though. For instance, I think Nikila’s mask is perfectly fine as a representation of a BIONICLE mask in an artistic style… but that’s just me. The point about having enough angles/detail is a very good one, and one I’d definitely advocate for if we reach that stage. :thumbsup:

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If I might throw my ■■■ in the ring on the custom parts: a solution to SOME of the concerns may be to allow digital MOCs and/or artwork instead of just actual MOCs. Some characters are already known only by artwork, like Surel; and when Tren Krom is just a blob of fleshy tendrils, it’s hard to really capture his appearance with Lego parts anyway. So, rather than forcing us to either get a 3D printer or surrender, maybe the answer is to just let us use nonphysical parts. It’d also let us use parts in colors they never came in. There are other valid objections to this rule, but I just wanted to propose one idea that’d make these contests less controversial than they might otherwise become.

That has no bearing on your aforementioned “problem” of setting character designs in stone. Tahu looks the way he does in canon, and we can’t change that. We can reinterpret his design as we see fit, but his canon design is fixed, and that’s ok. Either Lego makes a design themselves and deems it canon, or they or a representative they chose (in this case, Greg) accepts an outsider’s design as canon. The end result is the same: that character’s appearance is permanently fixed. Even if we accept that Lego’s designs “defined” Bionicle, that really only applies to the early sets which established the line’s aesthetic.

This isn’t about you. It’s not about any one of us. No matter what happens, SOMEONE will be unhappy with the outcome, contest or no contest. I don’t give a stone rat’s behind what you like, and neither does anybody else until you’re casting a vote in a contest.

I don’t see a need to leave anything totally ambiguous, and I think it is better to give people a canon design to point to if they want a starting point for a revamp or just an easier time of trying to imagine that character. But it doesn’t really matter what I think, does it? Same goes for all of us, including you.

You’re forcing a false dichotomy here, and you don’t seem to know what “canon” means. It just means that, in the official narrative, a given detail is true. The fact that fans can reinterpret canon details to their liking doesn’t have any bearing on the significance of those details, and I’m not saying anything is or isn’t significant. I’m saying that people can always reimagine whatever they like, however they like, and that’s what Lego’s all about anyway.

Again, you’re the only person on the planet who really cares about your opinion. No one fan’s opinion actually matters. That you’re opposing this thing which a lot of fans clearly want on the basis that you MIGHT not like the canon design really only makes you look selfish, particularly when most of the community clearly wants this. I might not like the canon designs chosen, but I also might like them.

You make it sound like the very notion of canon is useless in general. Lots of things are canon in media, but people can still form headcanons.

The answer to this demand will vary from one fan to the next. Different people want this for different reasons. I have explained my reasoning, but you’ll get a different answer from another member of the majority voters.

I have at no point suggested that my opinion or vote is worth more than anyone else’s. Please do not suggest that I did. I am just justifying my opinion publicly in case it would help others make an informed decision. And I am absolutely entitled to vote no on the basis that I would not like the results.

What is the reason? It is important for my understanding your argument.

This was somewhat of a viable option back in the day; the limited parts palette was offset by the ability to use a free range of colors, so the two competing in the same space was considered somewhat equal. But now that we have a number of programs, and especially ones that will allow custom models… I may have my personal objections to the idea of contests as a whole, but custom parts is just a complete non-starter. The entire brilliance of BIONICLE was its intense union between the stories and the sets, and while I know there have been plenty of characters only depicted in art, it’s unfathomable to me that we would have a LEGO-sanctioned contest (this particular stamp of approval apparently being necessary for the fragile equilibrium) and just throw out the entire idea of using LEGO at all by allowing what amounts to fake parts.

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I never have.

And I am entitled to call that out as both self-centered and closed-minded.

I thought I said this point before, but I can’t find where I did, so here it is: canonizing a design will ultimately inspire new MOCs, revamps of those designs. It’ll give people a baseline to jump off of when reimagining canon characters.

Another point: MOCing has come a long way, meaning we can get some REALLY advanced designs into canon, more skillfully-designed than anything the official compendium of characters has ever seen. It can be a testament to how far this community has come, how we’ve gone from a bunch of dumb kids to dumb adults, some of whom have all but mastered an art medium all our own.

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Okay, I think I understand your reasoning better now. You think that having canon contest winners will serve as a springboard for further artwork and MOCs. I agree that could be a nice thing. Couldn’t you accomplish the same thing with strictly “fanon” contests that do not risk stepping on anyone’s headcanon? I feel that no one has given me a satisfactory reason yet, which is why I keep responding. Why does the contest result need to be canon? A good MOC can stand on its own merits.

I think it would help if I framed my previous argument differently. Consider these two scenarios:

(A) A Helryx MOC wins a contest and becomes canon. Billy makes a cool Helryx MOC revamp that looks nothing like the winner. I enjoy Billy’s MOC better than the original.

(B) A Helryx MOC wins a contest and becomes “fanon”. Billy makes a cool Helryx MOC revamp that looks nothing like the winner. I enjoy Billy’s MOC better than the original.

What makes scenario (A) better than scenario (B)?

Finally, I think I feel the need to point out that my disagreeing with you is not a personal attack. And for the record, these are the quotes which I interpreted as making that accusation and, frankly, found quite rude:

I would also like to point out that you are calling my vote selfish for not agreeing with the majority, which is hypocritical. It’s my vote. Whatever my reasons for voting no, I am fulfilling the intended purpose of this poll.

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On the contrary, it allows the pool to be as large as possible, and means that we’re that much more likely to get the best selection of choices to decide from. I’d posit that I’m more inclined to let the victory go to a moc that has been refined to a point, and has had years’ worth of passion and heart poured into making it the best it possibly can be and one that was never initially designed for the sole sake of being canonized, but rather for the fun of it. Mocs made for the contest are far more likely to be motivated solely for the sake of winning, and I find that less desirable overall than a moc that was made with no thought of victory.

Not saying that they’ll automatically be one way or the other, or that the new creations wouldn’t have their share of heart poured into them, but I don’t see any point to limiting the pool of options in this way. As KhingK says, what he has produced, he has done so in the interests of art. Why not let these contests see a squaring off of all the greatest mocs to have been built over the past decade, as well as the best we can produce now? Like an all-star competition of sorts. This is, after all, one big celebration of who we are as a community.

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I completely agree with everything @Gonel just said.

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tl;dr: Design masks and make them freely available before holding MOC contests. Hold contests that flesh out the world without contradicting people’s mental images. And please, please don’t hold an Artakha contest :stuck_out_tongue:

Long:

I haven’t voted yet. I see good arguments both ways. Anyway, here are some thoughts.

3D printed parts:

@Planetperson, @Mesonak, and @Swert basically said what I was thinking. Before holding a MOC contest for a character with an unseen mask, consider holding an art contest for the mask. Entrants could submit 3D models or 2D art showing the mask from multiple angles. The winner would either post their model file (if it is 3D art), or a community member would agree to model the mask (if the winning piece is 2D art).

So, before the MOC contest, the mask model would be freely available. People could print the mask themselves or buy it on Shapeways. They could also use an existing placeholder mask, or import the mask into Stud.io or something. (Maybe if a MOC with a placeholder mask wins, the hosts could cover the cost of shipping a physical mask to the builder, so we could get official photos with the mask.)

Which characters to portray:

As many others have said, no matter what design wins, a lot of people will be unhappy. I remember some people got pretty upset about the Tobduk model since it was red. It didn’t match their mental image of Tobduk that they’d built up over what, two or three years? Well these characters have been simmering in our heads for over a decade now, so the backlash will be pretty bad.

So, some characters should just be off limits. I’m talking about Lariska, Helryx, Orde, Zaria, Chiara, and most importantly Artakha. Everyone has their own ideas of what these characters look like. No matter what design wins, most people won’t like it. (And no build can do Artakha justice!)

What could the contests be about then? Obscure characters off the beaten path. Ones people haven’t thought about enough to have firm mental images of. Like Jerbraz before he turned invisible, or that random winged OoMN member that people remember for some reason. Shapeshifters are good candidates too, since if you don’t like the winning build you can write it off as just one of their forms. A couple that come to mind are Triglax and Kojol. The Makuta of Stelt fits into both categories. Finally, we could have contests to fill out the ranks of the OoMN or something, like @Gonel suggested. Hopefully portraying these kinds of characters would make the world a bit richer without contradicting too many people’s mental images.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

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