Let’s build Jerbraz AFTER he turned invisible.
Her name is Winged Female Member and she is precious to us all.
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Quick thought to add into the discussion.
Were a Toa Hagah contest happen, would people prefer to see the proposed “Mask contest first, Toa design contest second” considering the Hagah aren’t like normal Toa? Their masks are sometimes honoring heroes of the past. We do not have a canon form for the Kanohi Pehkui. We know that Norik’s was shaped to honor a past hero that wore a Noble Krill. Is it not possible the other Toa Hagah were similarly the case?
Or in this instance, would it be a case of canonizing these mask shapes, but making them non-requirements for Hagah designs?
Again, just a question I’m curious to hear perspectives on. Been following along best I can and I appreciate how everyone has been doing their best to remain as civil as possible. Let’s keep working on keeping things peaceful.
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That’s a good question. I think I prefer your second suggestion, since it is more consistent with the lore, and I would also want to see the missing designs for the mask powers. But I would not mind terribly if the other Toa Hagah’s mask shapes all matched their powers.
I haven’t really spoke a lot on this subject as of late since it’s been so fresh, and I’ve wanted to wait and see how the conversation goes before really diving deep into it. However, I wanted to try and give my perspective as to why canonization would even matter at all.
BIONICLE has existed for 20 years and been active for 12. This community has always been instilled with motivation to keep this community active in the hopes that if/when the theme returns, we will have kept the torch going while the theme has been discontinued. As a community, I think everyone has done a really good job of that.
Unfortunately, when it came back, it wasn’t what we had hoped. It ended up doing great damage to the community and the name of the theme. That being the case, even if we aren’t hoping for another return, that doesn’t mean we can’t continue to contribute to the theme we all collectively enjoy.
Some people are of the opinion that it doesn’t matter anymore, the theme isn’t growing and it isn’t continuing. And in my opinion, that’s why it matters. We are still in a position to make additions, to create new structures for people to look back on and create art of, revamps of, stories of. We can introduce new visuals to the community with the understanding that this visual lives in the world we enjoy. We can host contests with the goal of adding to the grand mythos and universe we all enjoy, so that we can add more to what we know.
It allows us the opportunity to strive for a goal that is still, at least to me, something worth working hard for. Knowing that your depiction of something is considered as part of the story you enjoy so much, and that one of the creators has deemed it so. It’s something to be proud of.
I absolutely understand why people disagree with that, and I’m not attempting to sway anyone. This is simply my perspective on the matter. I think that these contests would do a lot to energize the community something fierce. What is important is to make sure it is done in moderation. We can’t go overboard and eliminate every possibility from the world.
These wouldn’t be about taking creativity away. It’s about inspiring people to get creative, to work within the confines of a short description, and to work hard to compete with fellow community members. It’s so at the end of the day, people can look back and be proud they were able to contribute to such a grand story and they got to play a part in it.
No one is beholden to accept any results. No one ever has. But fan contributions have always been a part of this franchise. To a large degree, it is one of the things that has set it apart from the others. We get to be a part of the world. And I still believe that is something worth striving for.
Again, I’d like to thank everyone for giving their perspectives and discussing the possibilities. I am most appreciative and I hope everyone has felt welcome to do so. We’re doing our best to handle this carefully so that it can be an exciting prospect and not something people dread as they have in the past.
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I really, really liked the idea at first but the more i think about it the more issuess pop up…
One one side, this is a great way to invigorate and bring together the community in one great contest reminiscent of the good old days, Greg included! Would be great for people like me who never took part in one of these contests before and it’s always a treat to see the creativity of other fans realized in a practical design.
But on the other side, I feel like the arguments brought forward by @jakfan1 @Ozkabot @Peri @Swert @Ghid @Dorek @Planetperson and @Wolk are more than valid and I cannot say I would be in favor of a contest officializing models made with non-official pieces.
And, I know I’ll sound corny, but I’m worried about Greg, I don’t want the man to be once again at the center of controversy and stuff. It would be one thing if this whole thing was backed up by Lego, but it is literally a fan made contest so the ‘canon’ argument doesn’t really make sense to me.
Just my thoughts about this matter, i feel like there are many good arguments on either side but I lean towards no.
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Okay, this at least is a novel argument, and I see its merit. I sympathize with the desire to keep the torch going. I’ll think about it more.
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Strongly agreed pal. There’s a lot of decent mocs and artwork of various characters from G1, and it would be a shame if they were disqualified from entering these upcoming contests.
If this was your typical contest, such as a jungle themed G2 contest, I would understand not allowing entries that were made beforehand. Not having canonization contests for almost a decade has set a precedent, thereby reinforcing the idea that it’s on the community to make their own designs of various characters. To disqualify entries because people couldn’t predict that contests would start up a decade after G1 ended sounds unfair, especially since it can come off as blaming people for something that no one should have expected. I’m sure that’s not the intention, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it comes off that way to some people. Given the context, these are not ordinary contests, and to treat them otherwise would be doing a disservice.
Where does one draw the line on entries? Will BionicleChicken, Galva, KhingK, and 00Dude have to go back and change their would-be entries? If artwork and 3D models made years ago are allowed, then why shouldn’t mocs made before be allowed? Some of the mocs were made in collaboration with 3D modelers and artists, such as various Makuta, Toa Tuyet, TYQ Toa, Galva’s Toa Nuva, BionicleChicken’s Female Winged Member, and so many more. In the end, it doesn’t matter to me whether you made a moc at a certain time, especially when you’re looking for the best of the best. I wouldn’t disqualify anyone from entering a contest because they couldn’t predict that more contests would somehow happen a decade after G1 ended, just as I wouldn’t dismiss a moc for using a custom mask or weapon.
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Juat going to throw this issue out there, what about characters where we know the mask, it has an existing peice, but doesn’t come in a given color. Variam is the most notable example, having either a gold or blue Calix.
I don’t think it’s so much that it doesn’t matter anymore, as it is the ability to let it be done. Personally, I don’t see any need for additional official content to keep me inspired to make MOCs or fanfictions, or community projects surrounding the theme. My inspiritation draws from my love for it, which I gain from my experience with the toys and stories. BIONICLE had its run, and we were even fortunate enough to get a proper ending, even though it was far from perfect and not quite what was originally planned. (We’ve discussed 2010’s worth to death already.) Everything has an ending, and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
Well, it’d be the community, not one of the creators, and while this is true, that’ll only be true for the one that goes through, leaving all other depictions being the opposite. The community will have deemed your depiction as “wrong.”
Something I hear a lot in regards to Greg saying random trivial lines is how it “removes from the mystery.” I fail to see how MOCs and drawings of characters who’s appearance is unknown adds to the mystery, if anything it too removes it, especially for characters like Artakha, Helryx or the Marendar, and I still do not see how this is any different than what happened to the Mangai, other being even worse, because I also don’t see how knowing what mask a Toa Mangai wore removes from the mystery.
Additionally, I hear a lot that the word of Greg is part of what creates a story that is so hard to get into, which I can agree with, though I don’t think it’s much of a problem. I think contests do the same, it’s yet another form of content to confuse the reader, if one critizies the Greg answers.
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Well… this blew up. Seriously, there was just the main post and next time I open up the boards there’s over 150.
I’ve seen concerns about 3d printed and CBS pieces. I really don’t see what the problem is. Lego has allowed painted pieces in their contests saying, “let the creativity flow.” 3d printed/bootlego pieces have been on cannon mocs before. Also I get saying you want to keep the aesthetic, but banning Ccbs pieces all together would really limit what people, especially newer fans, can do. That just doesn’t seem fair to me.
Also I saw a few people complaining about what 3d printed masks would mean. From my POV, it really doesn’t matter. Cannonically, mask powers are tied to composition, not shape. Someone would just have their mask canonized as the shape one character has. Unless you want to make that character, it really doesn’t make a difference.
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[quote=“Eljay, post:154, topic:51213”]
We are still in a position to make additions, to create new structures for people to look back on and create art of, revamps of, stories of. We can introduce new visuals to the community with the understanding that this visual lives in the world we enjoy. We can host contests with the goal of adding to the grand mythos and universe we all enjoy, so that we can add more to what we know.
[/quote]
Can anyone here think of a single fandom in which the original creators are not only still actively present, but still modifying and clarifying the content of the fandom’s lore, solely for the community’s benefit? Sifting through mindless amounts of dribble from the fanbase and taking the extra, unpaid time to answer questions brought up which have probably been answered fifty times already?
Besides Bionicle, I mean.
It’s particularly unrealistic to compare Bionicle to any other existing IP because there’s no other side to the coin, or even any other coins. The community is both passive and feral, the fanbase is both supportive and condemning, and the line therefore is kept both alive and dead.
An ending, and a beginning.
From that point, regardless of how well it was crafted, it flung the doors wide open to the creation of stories from that point forward, and countless personalized ending or continuations of Bionicle have sprung up from that point. Even now, there are new projects constantly appearing, set on ‘writing it like it should have been written’.
And at the same time, there are a good number of people on the site, some logging into their account for the first time in years, to say no, citing their distinct lack of interest in Bionicle at this point or ‘not caring about it anymore’ which is why they went on a Bionicle site just to say so. At this point Bionicle is being kept alive by the community, and the community has dictated Bionicle to be both alive and dead; Bionicle is both alive and dead.
[quote=“anyone reading this post, post:999, topic:51213”]
But Ghid, why are you quoting seemingly unrelated messages to your point? Just because people know who Eljay and Wolk are?[/quote]
No, just because they made big posts
All of this to say - from the argument of whether or not these should happen, as stated by the original post - what the heck do we have to lose, exactly? We have nothing to lose except wacky preconceptions. And by reigniting an interest in Bionicle; by canonizing things after so long, we have everything to gain. And who knows what will become of it?
Could you properly predict the rise and existence of Red Star Games, appearing from out of nowhere and pretty much staying that way? or Biowave, which seemed to be a one-man project for the longest time? even monumental flops like Bionicle Revolution sent massive waves throughout the Bionicle community. I’m the current head of Bionicle: Iliad, and that project wouldn’t exist if some kid (not me) didn’t play with his LEGO Bionicle Brand buildable action figures and eventually ponder why there hadn’t been an animated show after 17 years of the series. I know we’re not on the air yet shut up
So what do we have to lose?
No, really, please do tell me. I’d like to talk about it, because this topic is majorly turning towards the assumption that this is happening, and the concerned parties are discussing the logistics of the specifics, and that’s a conversation I really want to jump into - but not until this has adequately been discussed.
Welcome to Bionicle, baby
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What are you talking about? I know that at least most Hero Factory helmets can fit onto Glatorian heads, which originated from G1.
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I can’t think of a way to do it with mocing with 3D parts without severely harming the 3D printing community. Maybe if we limited it to art alone it would be better? But otherwise, I feel like canonization will get in the way of growth of the bionicle community and limit creativity.
This. I absolutely love this idea.
Part of me really wants custom 3D printed pieces, since there’s a really cool new side of the community that’s sprung up from that technology, and it feels a shame to completely exclude that. However, another part of me sees custom pieces as potentially being unfair. I would hate for a bad MoC to win a contest just because it included a cool custom mask design. It also feels really unorthodox and maybe not in the spirit of the G1 contests from before, since it brings non-Lego elements in a way I doubt Lego would have allowed back in the day.
So, I think Swert’s idea is the perfect marrying of the two. I allows for both in a way that doesn’t included my potential issues with either. Lego already allowed a fan-designed mask into canon with Toa Nikila, after all.
Also, from a MoCing perspective, having a MoC designed AFTER the mask design is established is helpful, since the visual style of the MoC can be made to fit cohesively with the mask design. “Custom masks and weapons only” sounds right, although I would be tempted to exclude weapons as well, because I’d be tempted to then also have weapon-design contests, but at that point if feels like it’s too much hassle. Just stick with all the existing pieces for weapons. There are so many pieces available that would be new to G1 now, thanks to HF and G2
I’m happy to have CCBS, HF and G2 pieces included, provided they’re used well and fit in with G1’s classic style. Having a guilding ratio is a good idea, but I don’t think contestants would have to be SUPER exact about it. That’s the sort of detail that can be discerned just through people’s voting choices. If something has too much CCBS, I’m reasonably confident people won’t vote for it as much.
For the Toa Hagah (hypothetically) I would want a Mask Design Contest first, then MoC Contest. The MoCs could just use placeholder masks.
I would actually have a multi-entry contest for the Hagah specifically however, where each contestant can submit 1 to all 4 Mask Designs/MoCs of the undepicted Toa Hagah (at least with Pouks’ Mask of Emulation there’s one canon art depiction of it though).
Also with the Toa Hagah, I think it’s just widely assumed that they would also be variant Metru Builds like Norik and Iruini with similar metallic armour distribution, but I would make that part of the rules. I hate the idea of super-customised Hagah MoCs that don’t fit with the Toa Norik/Iruini sets being made canon.
Edited for Double Post- Prentice1215
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Actually, and I believe this was mentioned in the livestream, the Hagah would probably be more fitting for an art contest. We already pretty much know what the Hagah look like outside of their masks and some colors, so the MOCs would end up being really samey if they were to adhere to canon.
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In part, yes.
Canon doesn’t actually restrict headcanon, anyway. It’s just useful to have an official design to point to when someone asks “Hey, so what does Lariska look like?”
Nothing, they’re the same scenario. It’s just semantics.
It’s not hypocritical, and I’m not telling you what to do or saying you should be a sheep. I’m saying you’re only thinking in terms of small-scale consequences, what happens to you and not the community. I cast my vote with the understanding that this is something that’d reinvigorate the community and give lots of fans something that they’ve never gotten to have, and maybe bring some closure for some of us, myself included. It seems bizarre that a toy-centered franchise should have so many characters with no depictions to look at and say “Hey, I can make that out of these building toys.”
The reality is that anything that gives the community something to do keeps Bionicle alive for longer, as well as the fandom itself.
Wait, was he described as being a different color? I forget.
I’d argue that, for the same reason of their sheer importance, they should be given canon designs. I’m of the mindset that they should be restricted to combiner models, but that’s clearly out the window. Now that we’ve agreed to do these contests, there’s gonna be backlash if we don’t have contests for them.
I’d argue that Jerbraz is one of the few characters we shouldn’t touch. His whole gimmick is that he’s invisible all the time, so nobody can tell what he looks like.
Like for the Rahi and DH books? That would actually be really huge, and it’d be great to have that in a day and age where MOCing is more advanced than it’s ever been. Are there any other factions/types of beings we can have such a contest for?
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I’m alright with the “Mask contest first, Toa design contest second” for the Toa Hagah. We know what their mask powers are, therefore we can piece things together (pun not intended) differently than certain Makuta and TYQ Toa. Perhaps it might be better to establish the mask powers of certain characters before? I have a design in mind for Bomonga, but I haven’t been able to find a mask that I’m 100% satisfied with. To do a mask contest first would help moc-makers such as myself solidify certain choices.
I think it’s possible to have the best of both worlds. A lot of masks have already been made and it would be nice to see them entered. If someone 3D models a custom mask in time for the moc contest, then it should be used. If the person is using a placeholder mask, then it should be stated for obvious reasons. Hopefully there’s enough time in between to get certain masks and helmets 3D printed so that they may be used for entries. As an aspiring photographer, it would be a disappointing if I had to photograph submit an entry without 3D printed parts, without being able to shoe the version with the 3D printed parts. Hopefully I haven’t misread anything so pardon me if I misinterpreted anything.
Agreed. I prefer variants of the Toa Hagah that look as if they were released by Lego, which is what I aspired to do with my Toa Hagah.
Strongly agreed. I remember when I worked with certain 3D modelers and they would almost always finish their 3D models before I finished the mocs that were built to go with them. I’m still changing many of my mocs to this day, despite the custom pieces being finished, which further validates your statement.
All in all, I feel better about the canonization contests than I did initially. Goalposts are being established, and they’ve come off as reasonable so far. To the staff, thank you for encouraging the fans to communicate and I hope these contests go well! 
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^Yeah, I very much agree with the points Sad made. I’d be down with Swert’s proposal if “artistic representation” can include previously made 3d masks, in case those creators want to have a go at it, and so we can have the opportunity to skip waiting on the artistic representation being printed. In that scenario, if the modeler is the one submitting the entry, I don’t see a reason to worry about them jacking up the price since if they were to win and do that, someone else could come in and make a replica for a better price since the design itself has become canon.
Eh, art contests have usually been relegated to characters who play a minor role and there’s no real excuse to make a fully fledged moc for (e.g. Surel, Kirbraz, Nikila, etc). The Toa Hagah, even apart from their Rahaga counterparts, play too large a role in the story to relegate to mere art. Tbh, I think that would be a far better option for some serial-only characters like Yesterday Quest Toa or an actual Kestora depiction, for example.
Now, although I’m inclined toward the hard non-CCBS camp, it seems apparent that a compromise will have to be reached, and after mulling it over, I want to present a proposal. Although for me a restriction on HF and G2 elements would be favorable, personally, there’s already a precedent as to, for example, the inclusion of the technic pieces of lines that had gone before–not only in official contests, but in the sets themselves. A hard ban on CCBS might not be necessarily very fair.
I suggest, then, that although a general ratio should be put forth (and, even if not strictly enforced, should remain in the minds of the voters). However, certain pieces that are central to the identity of the respective themes of HF, G2, and other sets using constraction should be completely off-limits.
Take Hero Factory, for example, where the crux of the theme is the Heroes. From the beginning, they were generally built with distinctive pieces to differentiate them from their Bionicle predecessors. This distinction should be respected–so no hero helmets, Hero Cores (or chest pieces with Hero Cores), Hero weapons, or printed pieces that are central to the identity of those heroes, etc. Same with the villain pieces, for the most part, although since these characters were less central to the line, it’s more difficult to give a hard “no” (heck the original big boss, Von Nebula, used a Hydraxon helmet, for example–as did, at one point, the big bad they were building up toward the end). So I don’t see so much of a necessity to outright ban villain pieces, but even their use should be done with respect to what fits and what doesn’t in the world of Bionicle–I generally think a lot of their masks would fit fairly well and look pretty interesting. But for the Heroes themselves, their pieces should remain unique, as highlights of their identity.
For G2, the masks, above all, were the central core of the theme, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the weapons, the printed armor pieces, the Skull Spiders/Shadow Traps, etc. Not only those of the Toa, but even the Protectors, Creatures, and villains of the wave, as they played far more unique roles in the story (be it individually or together as armies–I’d go so far as to argue even their respective roles significantly eclipsed those of the HF villains for HF). I would strongly object, therefore, if someone were to use the G2 Mask of Creation (or Control) for Artakha, since that Mask of Creation is so central to the theme–not to mention being the focal point of 2015’s whole marketing campaign. To steal that Mask of Creation outright would be to strip G2 of that special piece–not to mention the Mask of Creation has G2 language inscribed on it. While this would admittedly match the description we have of it, I still think any G1 Mask of Creation should, at the most, draw influence from it or pay homage to it, rather than just copying and pasting.
For Chima, Star Wars, Superheroes, mech, Ben 10, and whatever else uses constraction pieces (idk lol) then this would translate to the heads or pieces shaped like fur (Chima) or distinctive weapons, or printed pieces that designate identity, or whatever else. Again, Bionicle never needed Chima pieces or HF 3.0 pieces to build sick looking Rahi, so there’s no real reason to start.
In general, though, I think that the central pieces of these respective lines should be off-limits so as to maintain their individuality. Some of these pieces are what give these lines flavors and life, and to go and raid all of these for the sake of a competition feels wrong. These special pieces are made with their line and its unique aesthetic in mind, not that of Bionicle–not to mention, I doubt there will ever be a moccing situation where a Furno helmet makes or breaks a moc. His XL cape, maybe, but certainly not his helmet.
tl;dr: generic pieces good (within ratio/moderation/reason), character-centric pieces bad
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I don’t think there’s enough ways you can differentiate the Hagah as MOCs without straying from what we can reasonably assume they look like. Like I said, it’s just mask and armor color. I don’t think you want a contest where all the submissions look almost identical. I’m also not sure what you’re getting at when you say “mere art”.
I agree, this is a good idea for the Toa Hagah and possibly other contests.
I am against the idea of using HF helmets as canon Kanohi masks. Using them as Glatorian helmets is not so bad.
Exactly. The point I was making was that calling something canon has no effect if, as you say, it does not have any effect on others’ interpretations and is “just semantics.” On the other hand, you say that the canon interpretation serves the following purpose:
In this case, the canon MOC has more validity and public exposure than one’s personal interpretation, because it serves as a reference point for the whole community. I think that many people, including myself, are rightly put off by this. There is a reason there is some degree of backlash after each contest.
This is why I see no need to declare the contest winners official canon. On the other hand, I would be totally fine with holding the contests and calling them fanon, since it does not risk imposing a canon interpretation on the community. Would that not also invigorate the community?
My opinion is that canonizing contest winners steps on too many toes, but we lose nothing by not holding the contests, because fanon can continue to fulfill the same purpose just as well. That is my personal opinion, but many others in this thread have voiced an opinion like this.
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